One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

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John D
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One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by John D » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:45 pm

It's almost time to place the 2012 kit order, and the TS Exec has received a number of inquiries as to whether there will continue to be two kits (i.e racing black and the traditional baby blue). Before the order is placed, we would therefore like to hear from you.

The Exec is of the opinion that two kits in races is too much. We fell into this situation partly because a sponsor wanted a race team: we decided to do that with a different kit, so now we're sort of stuck with that as people have spent lots of money on both kits.

Specifically, we'd like to hear:

1. Do you think that TS should continue to have two kits?

2. Would you be ok with one kit being designated the racing kit? Would you be ok with the black kit being that kit, seeing as it was originally the 'race' kit, and some have bought that one to join the team? (e.g. the juniors all bought black kit to appear uniform in races).

Input will be solicited until Feb 13th, after which the Exec will review the submissions and make a decision. Bonus points for anyone who incorporates Suessian prose into their response.

John Dower (on behalf of the TS Exec)
"Talk - Action = Zero" - Joe Keithley

jj12
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by jj12 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:05 pm

Hello just a suggestion about our kit I think there should be 1 kit 2 colors baby blue and black. We could do something like Garmin baracuda's kit. Focus on the baby blue and black.... I'm not totally against the idea of 2 kits but it gets to be too much of money issue for me. Anyway here's a link to their colors.

http://m.flickr.com/photos/slipstreamsp ... /lightbox/
Last edited by jj12 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jimmy
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by Jimmy » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:29 pm

Not sure it really matters much as I have both jersey's but am not that active in the racing. I would guess that to be partly true for a number of members.
Short of an elite race team that needs/wants to be identified outside of the membership body perhaps the best bet is to continue with the two current kits and not dilute the public's perception of the mass membership.
One of the great things of the club is the mixing of all levels (a,b + c) w/o ego/status. "A" riders and "Race team members" know who they are and so does the rest of the club.

barton bourassa
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by barton bourassa » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:25 pm

I like baby blue! It is bold, brash and highly visible on the street and in races. It is unique.
I also did not realize that the decision to go black was based on a sponsor's request for a race team.
A lot of our riders have b&w and many have baby blue. I do not see it as too much of an issue if we have the b&w for racing, other than my feeling that baby blue is so unique and we are so easy to identify! But that is just me!
Most of the racing takes place in spring and summer weather so most of us could get away with owning just a jersey and shorts (or bibs) in b&w.
My preffered option is baby blue for all riding/racing but I am ok with baby blue for every day and b&w for racing. Lets just make sure baby blue remains an option.

Thanks for the opportunity for input.
Barton Bourassa

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JohnT
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by JohnT » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:18 pm

I vote for blue because my blue shorts have Tripleshot Cycling written on them. I have two sets of bib shorts and I could wear them with a new blue jersey (one with the new set of sponsors). My single set of black bib shorts has Tripleshot Spinnakers Racing on them in several places. So, I can't wear them with a new black jersey because we aren't sponsored by Spinnakers anymore (I'd have to buy new ones). Also, our bike sponsor is ..... BLUE. For anyone unhappy with the easter bunny theme, we could just get rid of the pink and yellow. We could also fade to darker, more manly, blue at the shoulders. So, I am in favour of a kit that allows me to purchase only the jersey.

JT

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Stéphane Tran
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by Stéphane Tran » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:58 pm

I think we should only have 1 kit for racing/training/group rides, etc. It just makes things easier and doesn't require members to shell out for 2 different sets of gear. Having 2 kits seems unnecessary and seems to go against the inclusive ethos that Tripleshot is known for. I personally like the baby blue kit, have lots of it and would prefer that the new design be matchable (is that a word?) with the baby blue colour combo. However, if I am compelled to buy some new, differently coloured lycra specifically for racing, I would ask that we stick to the same colour combination for at least a few years.

gab
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by gab » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:13 pm

I'm a big fan of the baby blue, Easter Egg and all. It's bold, unique and...timeless? I don't object to a second kit if people want one, but the baby blue should definitely stay!

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Josh.E
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by Josh.E » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:09 pm

I think TS should go back to only having the easter egg kit, as it is still the official "club" kit.

A bit of history. The race team kit was designed as part of an attempt to start a designated racing program to offer something in the way of further development options for riders who wanted to pursue more racing without having to look elsewhere to find the resources,support, similar level training partners and teammates they needed to travel and compete as a team in out of town races. The race team kit itself was offered to the general membership as a fundraiser to support the creation of such a program. The idea of the separate kit had mostly to do with the idea that the racing team would pursue additional sponsorship to help specifically fund the running of the race team program. Therefore the sponsors on the race team jersey would have needed to be different from those on the club jersey in many cases.

If there is still a plan to build a racing development program of some kind that is going to pursue separate sponsorship from the general club, then I could see the need for the second kit. Otherwise, one kit going forward seems like the better and easier option.

(edited for brevity)
Last edited by Josh.E on Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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wonger
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by wonger » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:28 am

Stéphane Tran wrote:I think we should only have 1 kit for racing/training/group rides, etc. It just makes things easier and doesn't require members to shell out for 2 different sets of gear. Having 2 kits seems unnecessary and seems to go against the inclusive ethos that Tripleshot is known for.

+ 1
#38

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debh
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by debh » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:16 am

I vote for the easter eggs for all of the reasons already stated. Triple Shot aims to encourage people to try cycling as recreation, and is why we have such a large membership. Those inclined to race can be just as successful in the club kit :D

The juniors who have the black kit would need to get new kit anyway to reflect their new sponsors.
---
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spearson
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by spearson » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:00 am

+1 for the baby blues.

I also don't mind doing the ordering again when the dust settles.

Speaking of which - I still have kit for Ramsey, Vanessa, and Richard if anyone sees them, get them to PM me.

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Lister Farrar
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by Lister Farrar » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:13 am

(Thanks to John, I realize I wasn't clear below. I like the black for racing and events, blue for everything else, to make use of what we have, and encourage racing. Rationale follows.)

Thanks for the background Josh. We know the intention of the black kit was good. But we're kinda past the point of going back, as so much of the black kit has been purchased. More than $10,000 I understand.

And I'm not sure if there's really a helpful distinction between "recreational", vs what? Serious? There's some pretty darn serious riders in our c groups, and some pretty goofy behaviour among elite riders. And everybody's recreational until you get paid.

I agree there is probably a distinction between riders that get all the competition they need in Victoria, and those that need to travel to find competition. But even that's fraught with issues. If a junior girl can race over her head in VCL B races, is going to her provincials a waste of time? If a cat 3 can’t beat the cat 3’s in Vic, should they get support to go race on the mainland? If 5 juniors out of 6 are competitive provincially, should the empty seat in the van go to a less competitive one who trains with them, or to a cat 3 who needs the points to upgrade?

But that all gets in the way of the value most of us agree is intrinsic in racing. It’s the things you discover about yourself, the things you didn’t know you could do. It’s the hope in just going to the line, that Glenowyn talked about in one particularly good post here.

The question of 'why do we have two kits?' keeps coming up. Partly it’s which one to buy, if you can only afford one. Partly it’s suggests some vague division or lack of cohesion that it’s probably not best to ignore if we want to continue with our commitment to our fellow members.

We could pick one uniform, or pick a third, but either of those require we either retire a big chunk of clothing (and piss off the owners), or spend a lot more money on new stuff. Or we try to address the lack of uniformity in front of larger audiences (e.g. races) in some other way. And maybe send that message that you were trying to say last year, that racing is a cool thing. Except I do think it’s appropriate for everyone, not just a team.

And as for interest in racing in TS, it might not be in the category you are interested in, but there's a significant amount of racing being done by club members. The juniors have made a big commitment, with Evan and Brenna funding their own way to the Cycling BC Palm Springs camp, paying for their own testing at PISE, more than half their racing expenses, and most of the team raced more than 25 days this year.

The women have stepped up, have asked for, and are leading a women's racing development clinic series in conjunction with the beginner series at Western. Four masters are going to Sardinia. The club organized more than 10 days of licensed racing last year, as well as the school league. How many clubs can say they've done that much? Maybe Sidney Velo and, ironically, they may have less racers than us. Commitment to racing ≠ the number in a certain category.

If a race 'team' had emerged last year, it would have required some kind of criteria for club support. That's harder than it sounds, as you know. On absolute results, Adam probably deserved the most support. But Glenowyn had outstanding results in her category in several disciplines, and Brenna, Alex and Liam all won provincial championships. Mark Ford probably does better in his category than anyone. Except for Adam, they might not go as fast as the A group, but it does give an idea of how difficult it is to allocate. The exec is working on an idea to support developing riders, in a way that serves the whole club. Tall order, but linking the two ideas of supporting development, and helping members to achieve their potential, is complicated, as I think you found out last year.

Having a race kit, and an alternative training kit, means we get to use what we have, but also promote the idea of racing as a way to stretch yourself at whatever level you're at, something TS definitely stands for. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t go so hard every morning.

I realize this is more answer than a jersey design. It's about what we want the club to be. Symbols are important, and they need to stand for something. We have a quirk of our clothing buying frenzy to live with. We can capitalize on that by attaching some meaning to it.

edit: forgot my seuss quote. Here's one to apologize for my long post.

“So the writer who breeds more words than he needs, is making a chore for the reader who reads.”
― Dr. Seuss
Last edited by Lister Farrar on Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lister
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Lister Farrar
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by Lister Farrar » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:38 am

debh wrote: The juniors who have the black kit would need to get new kit anyway to reflect their new sponsors.
Unlike protour teams, club race kit has a longer life than one season, as most of the discussion suggests. Sponsors know this when they sign on too. Older kit (even w old sponsors) works well as back up for racing. Racing kit is more likely to receive rough use, from crashes to bad weather conditions ('cross, stage races), so racers need more of the same colour.
Lister
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And I hope you like jammin', too."
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JohnT
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by JohnT » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:40 am

Great comments Lister, but by the end it wasn't clear to me whether you like black, blue or both?

JT

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Lister Farrar
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by Lister Farrar » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:57 am

JohnT wrote:Great comments Lister, but by the end it wasn't clear to me whether you like black, blue or both?

JT
lol. There I go, doing a long pull while forgetting the reason, just like we coach not to!

I like the black for races and events, blue as training/cafe/safe in traffic/proof-I'm-comfortable-with-my-masculinity.

Makes the most of the existing gear, removes most of the lack of uniformity concern, saves the juniors buying all new gear, makes the point that racing is good. Though not your shorts issue John.

But I still want to drink coffee with everyone, whichever way it goes.:)
Lister
"We're jammin', jammin',
And I hope you like jammin', too."
(Bob Marley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdwYY9rZL4

AlW
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by AlW » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:31 pm

Stéphane Tran wrote:I think we should only have 1 kit for racing/training/group rides, etc. It just makes things easier and doesn't require members to shell out for 2 different sets of gear. Having 2 kits seems unnecessary and seems to go against the inclusive ethos that Tripleshot is known for. I personally like the baby blue kit, have lots of it and would prefer that the new design be matchable (is that a word?) with the baby blue colour combo. However, if I am compelled to buy some new, differently coloured lycra specifically for racing, I would ask that we stick to the same colour combination for at least a few years.
Agreed. While I like elements of both the race and club kit, I prefer the baby blues. It's much more distinctive and recognizable (although I think the pink/yellow/brown argyle is getting somewhat dated :( )
Lister Farrar wrote:But we're kinda past the point of going back, as so much of the black kit has been purchased. More than $10,000 I understand.

Have to disagree here. While it's true there has been a significant investment in the race kit, I think the investment in the blue kit is significantly more. Factoring in the future cost of maintaining 2 kits further reinforces the need to standardize on a single design.
#24

steve
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by steve » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:53 pm

I work in Langford - wearing lycra is a tough sell at the best of times, never mind the argyle patterning with pink...

My vote is for the black kit.

Steve

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Jimmy
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by Jimmy » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:09 pm

Given that we've already got both Baby Blue and Black kits in circulation and that people may have colour preferrences, why not just leave both in production so that people aren't forced to replace? Simply add/subtract sponsors names on new production.

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Josh.E
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by Josh.E » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:30 pm

Lister Farrar wrote:(Thanks to John, I realize I wasn't clear below. I like the black for racing and events, blue for everything else, to make use of what we have, and encourage racing. Rationale follows.)

Thanks for the background Josh. We know the intention of the black kit was good. But we're kinda past the point of going back, as so much of the black kit has been purchased. More than $10,000 I understand.

And I'm not sure if there's really a helpful distinction between "recreational", vs what? Serious? There's some pretty darn serious riders in our c groups, and some pretty goofy behaviour among elite riders. And everybody's recreational until you get paid.

I agree there is probably a distinction between riders that get all the competition they need in Victoria, and those that need to travel to find competition. But even that's fraught with issues. If a junior girl can race over her head in VCL B races, is going to her provincials a waste of time? If a cat 3 can’t beat the cat 3’s in Vic, should they get support to go race on the mainland? If 5 juniors out of 6 are competitive provincially, should the empty seat in the van go to a less competitive one who trains with them, or to a cat 3 who needs the points to upgrade?

But that all gets in the way of the value most of us agree is intrinsic in racing. It’s the things you discover about yourself, the things you didn’t know you could do. It’s the hope in just going to the line, that Glenowyn talked about in one particularly good post here.

The question of 'why do we have two kits?' keeps coming up. Partly it’s which one to buy, if you can only afford one. Partly it’s suggests some vague division or lack of cohesion that it’s probably not best to ignore if we want to continue with our commitment to our fellow members.

We could pick one uniform, or pick a third, but either of those require we either retire a big chunk of clothing (and piss off the owners), or spend a lot more money on new stuff. Or we try to address the lack of uniformity in front of larger audiences (e.g. races) in some other way. And maybe send that message that you were trying to say last year, that racing is a cool thing. Except I do think it’s appropriate for everyone, not just a team.

And as for interest in racing in TS, it might not be in the category you are interested in, but there's a significant amount of racing being done by club members. The juniors have made a big commitment, with Evan and Brenna funding their own way to the Cycling BC Palm Springs camp, paying for their own testing at PISE, more than half their racing expenses, and most of the team raced more than 25 days this year.

The women have stepped up, have asked for, and are leading a women's racing development clinic series in conjunction with the beginner series at Western. Four masters are going to Sardinia. The club organized more than 10 days of licensed racing last year, as well as the school league. How many clubs can say they've done that much? Maybe Sidney Velo and, ironically, they may have less racers than us. Commitment to racing ≠ the number in a certain category.

If a race 'team' had emerged last year, it would have required some kind of criteria for club support. That's harder than it sounds, as you know. On absolute results, Adam probably deserved the most support. But Glenowyn had outstanding results in her category in several disciplines, and Brenna, Alex and Liam all won provincial championships. Mark Ford probably does better in his category than anyone. Except for Adam, they might not go as fast as the A group, but it does give an idea of how difficult it is to allocate. The exec is working on an idea to support developing riders, in a way that serves the whole club. Tall order, but linking the two ideas of supporting development, and helping members to achieve their potential, is complicated, as I think you found out last year.

Having a race kit, and an alternative training kit, means we get to use what we have, but also promote the idea of racing as a way to stretch yourself at whatever level you're at, something TS definitely stands for. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t go so hard every morning.

I realize this is more answer than a jersey design. It's about what we want the club to be. Symbols are important, and they need to stand for something. We have a quirk of our clothing buying frenzy to live with. We can capitalize on that by attaching some meaning to it.

edit: forgot my seuss quote. Here's one to apologize for my long post.

“So the writer who breeds more words than he needs, is making a chore for the reader who reads.”
― Dr. Seuss
Deleted Post

My apologies to all for letting myself get sucked off on a tangent from the topic at hand.
Last edited by Josh.E on Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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spearson
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Re: One kit, two kits, black kit, blue kit?

Post by spearson » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:36 pm

No one has ever forced Chris Watt to ride alone just because he showed up in his vintage Neapolitan Ice Cream coloured TripleShot kit. The fact that none of us can keep up with him may have given that impression.

This should never be a question of members being allowed or not allowed to wear kit they have already purchased, but on steering future club purchasing decisions.

A single kit also means minimum orders get met faster, more orders can be placed per year, and ordering within the existing online forms is possible (thanks again Roland). 10 of 1 item is the minimum and is actually quite tough to assemble when LS and SS jerseys are considered to be different products. 10 accessories minimums are even tougher with 2 kits. Doing it by hand is also tremendously error prone (apologies to Sylvan and Deb who both got shafted on the last order I put in).

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